Argonath RPG Police Department

GTA: San Andreas => SA:MP Complaints Desk => SAPD Information Center => [SA:MP] Closed Complaints => Topic started by: Thomas_Crof on April 03, 2013, 14:13:57 pm

Title: [ARPD Report] Jack_Baker
Post by: Thomas_Crof on April 03, 2013, 14:13:57 pm

Directed to: SAPD authority.
ARPD Officer Policy violators: Jack_Baker

1. Jack Baker - Breaching a building alone, risking the lives of other officers
2. Jack Baker - Refusing to follow orders

1.  A barricaded suspect situation was reported at Los Santos Ocean Docks. Several officers responded; so did Lt. Perry and myself. Upon arriving, Jack_Baker went in all by himself, leaving the other officers outside and no clue what had just happened. However the suspect immediatly surrendered, so his life (nor those who stormed in after him, to safe his life) were endangered.
    a. Pictures..
        None
    b. Other evidence..
        Statement of lieutenant Def Perry.

2.  Another barricaded suspect situation, this time involving two or three heavily armed suspects in Willowfield Ammu-Nation. Two officers attempted to breach and clear the building but were killed doing so. Jack_Baker arrived on scene and immediatly commanded GiacJr to breach with him. However, the two (or three!) suspects inside had full armour whereas Jack Baker and Giac didn't. I told him not to breach, since backup was on the way and they had less HP and armour. He said backup wouldn't come and still wanted to breach, despite my specific orders not to breach. Meanwhile, more officers had responded and he told Callum(..) to breach along with him. As a civilian was suspected outside for ignoring orders to stay away, I didn't want to breach yet but first get that suspect in a cruiser to make it safer for everyone. However, Jack_Baker breached, they ran out and were killed outside by officers.
   a. Pictures..
        None (Padres_Rosso did take screenshots, I think)
    b. Other evidence..
        Chatlog:

Spoiler (Click to expand) [13:37:18] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: We will wait them out [13:37:29] GiacJr(50): Police Radio: C30 Willowfield ammu, two heavily armed barricaded suspects, Over. [13:38:24] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: Keep your gun aimed at the door [13:38:30] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: KEEP AIMING [13:39:30] Carlo_Toreno(2): Police Radio: SU55 now airborne, requesting backup from AirDiv or SWAT, Over. [13:39:30] Jack_Baker(11): Police Radio: Copy that - SWAT-HA is inbound, Over. [13:39:30] GiacJr(50): Police Radio: C30 Willowfield ammu, two heavily armed barricaded suspects, Over. [13:39:35] Jack_Baker(11): Police Radio: 10-22 C30, Over. [13:40:03] Jack_Baker(11) says: 2 ? [13:40:12] GiacJr(50) says: Yep [13:40:13] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: Perhaps three [13:40:21] Jack_Baker(11) says: Ok, Giac come with me [13:40:23] GiacJr(50) says: Three in there actually [13:40:26] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: Don't go in Jack [13:40:27] Jack_Baker(11) says: Thomas, wait outside with pepper [13:40:33] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: Jack... Don't [13:40:38] GiacJr(50) says: Two officers just died. [13:40:41] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: They got full body armour and weapons up their socks [13:40:43] GiacJr(50) says: Trying to be heroes [13:40:51] GiacJr(50) says: I'm not prepared to die a hero [13:40:53] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: You might be SWAT but you'll get shot down [13:40:55] Jack_Baker(11) says: I know what to do, theres no backup coming. [13:41:01] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: There IS [13:41:03] Jack_Baker(11) says: Theres no time for a chit chat discussion now [13:41:08] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: Sure there is [13:41:09] Jack_Baker(11) says: Listen up, alright? [13:41:11] Dirt_McGirt(57) says: are the suspects still inside? [13:41:20] Jack_Baker(11) says: Follow as i said so [13:41:20] Jack_Baker(11) says: Giac [13:41:29] Padres_Rosso(41) says: No backup arrvies, eh?  [13:41:36] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: You cannot command SAPD or ARPD [13:41:44] Jack_Baker(11) says: I want you to /exit if you're about 50 hp left [13:41:45] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: As this isn't a full SWAT job... [13:41:56] Jack_Baker(11) says: SWAT members are in charge of barricaded situations [13:41:59] Jack_Baker(11) says: on or off duty [13:42:01] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: Wrong [13:42:02] Jack_Baker(11) says: let me remind you about that [13:42:08] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: They are in charge, when SWAT in on scene [13:42:11] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: For now, you're just an ARPD officer [13:42:19] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: So listen to my commands or I will report you [13:42:19] Jack_Baker(11) says: Callum, you're also coming. [13:42:32] Jack_Baker(11) says: get ready. [13:42:37] [WS]Thomas_C(16) says: Fine Jack... Do what you like, I'm getting you reported for failing to follow orders [13:42:38] CallumStorm(59) says: I need to have SMG [13:42:39] GiacJr(50) says: hang on wait for Nexxt [13:42:40] CallumStorm(59) says: Or shotgun [13:42:59] NexxtThePenguin(39) shouts: FREEZE!! [13:42:59] Jack_Baker(11) says: Use what ever you need. [13:43:00] CallumStorm(59) says: I'll be sprayer [13:43:04] GiacJr(50) shouts: do not approach!! [13:43:10] [WS]Thomas_C(16) shouts: Leave!! [13:43:10] Demir_Vendito(9) was suspected by officer GiacJr(50) for ignore [13:43:20] Jack_Baker(11) shouts: LINE UP!! [13:43:32] Jack_Baker(11) shouts: DIRT!! [13:43:37] Dirt_McGirt(57) says: yes [13:43:38] Jack_Baker(11) shouts: Get over here!! [13:43:38] [WS]Thomas_C(16) shouts: Down on the ground!! [13:43:44] GiacJr(50) says: You two [13:43:47] GiacJr(50) says: one of you with spray [13:43:48] GiacJr(50) says: one of you aim [13:43:53] [WS]Thomas_C(16) knees him in the back, holstering his weapon [13:43:56] GiacJr(50) says: Four of us go in [13:43:57] Jack_Baker(11) says: Okay, get ready to breach. [13:43:59] [WS]Thomas_C(16) attempts to cuff him [13:44:00] GiacJr(50) says: Spread out [13:44:02] GiacJr(50) says: ! [13:44:02] Jack_Baker(11) says: Breach in 3. [13:44:04] Jack_Baker(11) says: 2.. [13:44:05] Jack_Baker(11) says: 1.. [13:44:06] Jack_Baker(11) says: GO [13:44:39] Jack_Baker(11): Police Radio: Thomas, we were gonna die right?, Over. [13:44:45] Jack_Baker(11): Police Radio: I believe im still alive, Over. [13:44:51] [WS]Thomas_C(16): Police Radio: Still ignored orders, Over. [13:44:57] [WS]Thomas_C(16): Police Radio: And you didn't go in with the two of you, like you planned, Over. [13:45:00] [WS]Thomas_C(16): Police Radio: Backup arrived, unlike you said, Over. [13:45:03] [WS]Thomas_C(16): Police Radio: I'm still reporting you, Over.

        Other:
         Statements by witnesses (officers on scene).


Date: Wednesday - March 3rd, 2013
Time: ~ 13:40

Civillian(s) involved: None
Officer(s) involved: SAPD Cadet Padres_Rosso, ARPD Officer GiacJr, ARPD Officer NexxtThePenguin

Signed,
Thomas 'Leroy' Crof
SAPD Officer

Title: Re: [ARPD Report] Jack_Baker
Post by: Nexxt on April 03, 2013, 14:26:04 pm

I am a witness of this situation, but I am not gonna do any comments on this. I'm only confirming the situation happened, I might answer future questions but I prefer to stay out of this.

Title: Re: [ARPD Report] Jack_Baker
Post by: Def Perry on April 03, 2013, 16:11:16 pm

[13:41:56] Jack_Baker(11) says: SWAT members are in charge of barricaded situations
[13:41:59] Jack_Baker(11) says: on or off duty

Marcus Ferreira - SWAT Operative
[16:27:01] PM to Marcus_Ferreira(29): Are SWAT members in charge of barricated situations, once off-SWAT-duty?
[16:27:54] PM from Marcus_Ferreira(29): SWAT members OFF SWAT duty are REGULAR ARPD freecops
[16:28:06] PM from Marcus_Ferreira(29): ban if you find it necessary
[16:30:00] PM to Marcus_Ferreira(29): Can I use this for an ARPD report as confirmation or not?
[16:30:06] PM from Marcus_Ferreira(29): sure
[16:32:56] PM to Marcus_Ferreira(29): Can not lead barricated situations once off duty?
[16:33:12] PM from Marcus_Ferreira(29): ARPD officers can, but if there is NO SAPD on line

Trane Kiedis - SWAT Operative
[16:40:32] PM to Trane_Kiedis(75): Should SWAT members take charge of a barricated situation, once off duty?
[16:40:40] PM to Trane_Kiedis(75): When there is SAPD on the scene.
[16:41:12] PM from Trane_Kiedis(75): there is no official statement, the SAPD higher ranked or FBI one applies
[16:41:25] PM from Trane_Kiedis(75): however sure as they got more expierence with it, if nobody else minds
[16:51:17] PM to Trane_Kiedis(75): Can I use your statement for an ARPD report?
[16:51:24] PM from Trane_Kiedis(75): ok


I guess this needs clarification then, needs to be confirmed by a higher commanding member.

Title: Re: [ARPD Report] Jack_Baker
Post by: Padres_Rosso on April 03, 2013, 16:33:22 pm

Screens of the Incident at Willowfield Ammu..

http://i.imgur.com/e9Grb4e.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/e9Grb4e.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/EF1GoM2.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/EF1GoM2.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/Awh3gW8.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/Awh3gW8.jpg)

Title: Re: [ARPD Report] Jack_Baker
Post by: Thomas_Crof on April 03, 2013, 20:14:35 pm

Jack_Baker is aware he has been reported and viewed this topic on at least two seperate occassions.

Title: Re: [ARPD Report] Jack_Baker
Post by: Chase on April 04, 2013, 22:38:10 pm

If SWAT isn't in charge of barricaded suspects off SWAT duty, then I think they ought to due to the fact we cannot always mobilize a team yet.


As far as breaching without waiting for backup - I say if he wants to breach, let him. If he dies alone, it's his loss, not anyone elses.

Title: Re: [ARPD Report] Jack_Baker
Post by: Thomas_Crof on April 04, 2013, 22:43:52 pm

Quote from: Chase on April 04, 2013, 22:38:10 pm

If SWAT isn't in charge of barricaded suspects off SWAT duty, then I think they ought to due to the fact we cannot always mobilize a team yet.

A SWAT team has tactics. Are they better equiped than SAPD to breach? Yes. Are they better Have they had specialized trained, diffirentiating from SAPD's? Yes. Should they be in charge of barricaded suspects when on SWAT duty? Yes. However, if he's just alone there, then the tactics are a waste. People that don't know tactics, can't follow them. That's not an insult or anything, it's just a fact. So in my opinion, it's better to let an SAPD officer handle the situation. Why? Because he's been into situations just like these with the very same officers. Jack has experience with barricaded suspect situations with his team, SAPD officer's have experience with barricaded suspect situation with their teams.

Anyhow, command can be given with mutual consent. There was no such thing as mutual consent in this incident. Just an ARPD officer bossing around an SAPD officer. And that's what this report it about. Hierarchy is something I keep a close eye on, and I'd hope a SWAT commander would do the same.

Quote from: Chase on April 04, 2013, 22:38:10 pm

As far as breaching without waiting for backup - I say if he wants to breach, let him. If he dies alone, it's his loss, not anyone elses.

Well, he was ordering GiacJr in who clearly stated he didn't want to. (I'm not ready to die a hero.)

Title: Re: [ARPD Report] Jack_Baker
Post by: Def Perry on April 04, 2013, 22:55:24 pm

Quote from: Chase on April 04, 2013, 22:38:10 pm

As far as breaching without waiting for backup - I say if he wants to breach, let him. If he dies alone, it's his loss, not anyone elses.

Respectively, it could become very messy for the leader if everyone starts to act on his own.

So SWAT members should also take charge of a barricated situation once off-SWAT duty? Does this count for every SWAT member or only SWAT leaders?

Title: Re: [ARPD Report] Jack_Baker
Post by: Plam Knight on April 07, 2013, 16:00:21 pm

Even though there is no rule atleast on our part that gives SWAT leadership over situation, even while they are off duty, it was still common sense he should have taken charge.
SWAT are purposely trained to handle such a situations and due to the fact Jack is apart of SWAT leadership, he still outranked all of the officers on scene and had full right to take over the situation.

The only better thing that could have been done better was if he informed you little bit better, before taking full charge, but other then that Jack didn't step over any rules.
As well he didn't force anyone to breach, so technically whoever followed him decided on his own to join him and could have suffered the lost of his life on his own.
As well considering situation was succseful, Jack did the right call.

No actions taken.