Lieutenant [WS]Daniel - Abuse of /copban.

[GiacJr]

Directed to: SAPD authority.
SAPD Officer Policy violators: Lt. [WS]Daniel.

1. [WS]Daniel - Abuse of /copban powers.
2. Officer's Department - Unsure

Chatlogs:
[22:18:30] OG_Smoke(72): Police Radio: Permission to DB a monster truck?, Over.
[22:18:36] GiacJr(2): Police Radio: granted U72, Over.
[22:18:42] [MA]Roske(57): Police Radio: U2, Over.
[22:18:49] [MA]Roske(57): Police Radio: You cannot give out DB Premmisions, Over.
[22:18:50] Starky(85): Police Radio: U2 you do not have permission to grant // deny, Over.
[22:18:55] GiacJr(2): Police Radio: who the f**k's gonna stop me, Over.
[22:18:59] GiacJr(2): Police Radio: you don't need permission to DB, Over.
[22:19:01] OG_Smoke(72): Police Radio: right xD, Over.
[22:19:02] [MA]Roske(57): Police Radio: That would be me., Over.
[22:19:03] [WS]Daniel(38): Police Radio: I will do if you dont stop it, Over.
[22:19:08] GiacJr(2): Police Radio: f**king come at me motherf**ker, Over.
[22:19:11] GiacJr(2): Police Radio: we'll see who's right, Over.
[22:19:13] [MA]Roske(57): Police Radio: Bye U2, Over.
[22:19:15] You have been banned from being a cop for 7 day(s).
[22:19:15] Reason: flaming
[22:19:15] Player successfully banned from police work.

Now, first off - nobody needs permission to driveby, therefore anyone was well within their right to say what I said in granting the permission. The fact that "Lieutenant" Daniel went against this to begin with shows a blatant disregard for SAPD procedures and indicates to me that he was on some kind of power trip wherein nobody else was entitled to any kind of power, be it existent or otherwise.
Secondly, yup I flamed him. However, this is an admin issue. Daniel should have used /report id reason like every other person in the chat would have had to. He abused his ability to /copban thinking he was an admin and had the power to enforce server rules - in reality, he does NOT. The server admins are recruited to do this job - SAPD Command Staff do not have this job, otherwise they would be on /admins list.
Thirdly, one week for calling someone a 'motherf**ker'? Who does this guy think he is? I never gave out a copban for that length of time in my entire career for any reason, and I copbanned people for impersonating chiefs, for going on DM wars as officer and for all kinds of insane and boundry-pushing reasons - but an entire week for one insult? People don't even get 10 minute tempbans for what I did.
Fourthly, [WS]Daniel perhaps needs a course on having any kind of power - in ANY situation, it is better to TALK before using COMMANDS. This could have easily been avoided if he had, instead of threatening me, PMed me and explained for me to calm down and told me his take on the issue.

Therefore I believe that [WS]Daniel acted way outside of his prescribed powers to begin with, and in abusing these powers, he went far and beyond the extent to which they are meant to be used. I would like to request an immediate uncopban, a review of [WS]Daniel's copban powers and an apology for the incredible inconvenience I'm being faced with, having to type out this entire topic and stop playing the game.

Perhaps you also need to re-assess who gets the rights to copban - that is twice now that I've been copbanned as a result of defending my right to do very basic things. Your copban officers don't seem to be aware that ARPD do not need to listen to SAPD, nor that it is allowed to driveby without SAPD permission. I'd be having a long, hard look at who can copban and re-assessing whether or not they're capable to even be performing their jobs properly, let alone having the power to exclude an individual from an entire aspect of the game for an entire week.

Date: 26th May 2012
Time: 22:19 AEST

Civillian(s) involved: -

Signed
GiacJr

[Daniel_Bradford]

Sure, I should get fired.

[22:19:08] GiacJr(2): Police Radio: f**king come at me motherf**ker, Over.

[GiacJr]

Sure, I should get fired.

[22:19:08] GiacJr(2): Police Radio: f**king come at me motherf**ker, Over.

I would advise that you read the entire topic before you post such things - I am not disputing what I said. I know I said it. My problem is that you should have used /report like everyone else. There's no way that you read that entire post in 1 minute and 8 seconds - not even I could have read it and formulated a response that quickly.

Also, if you had bothered to read, you'd know that I don't want you fired. I want the copban removed and an apology. I'm fair, if anything Daniel.

[Daniel_Bradford]

Also, in case you do not know the rules of this section:

Provocation of any kind, is not accepted (This includes creating any kind of tension or starting arguments)

[GiacJr]

Also, in case you do not know the rules of this section:

Provocation of any kind, is not accepted (This includes creating any kind of tension or starting arguments)

I don't particularly see where I committed this offence - all I have done (if you had still bothered to read my post) was point out where I think you acted wrongly.

[SeanC]

Hi, Giac.

I am the SFPD Captain and Daniel's supervisor so I will be handling the report against him.

From what Daniel has explained to me in private was that he cop banned you for your comment towards the other officers (I'm not sure who you directed the flame to) which was offensive and inappropriate.
As you obviously know, the ARPD and SAPD does expects the officer to follow the server rules in the line of duty, in which a command member at this point may punish you for breaking the rules as a supervisor towards the rest of the ARPD and SAPD officers.

At this point, you were cop banned for 7 days which in my own opinion is too much as well but of course that could fixed by the end of this investigation.
Other than that though, Daniel did nothing wrong as such thing may be handled by the command as far as I know (disrespectful attitude towards other officers would be the best explanation to the cop ban at this point) therefore the ban is valid.

But what could of been done as you mentioned is that Daniel could approach you first before taking any action against you.
I will investigate this case together with the rest of the SAPD Upper-Command staff as Daniel is a member of the SAPD Command.

If you have anything more to add, please do so now.
Topic will be moved in 24 hours time or whenever both parties agrees to not have anything more to add.

Thanks!

[Daniel_Bradford]

Nothing more to add... Oh and yes, the copban is all about the flaming, it has nothing to do with the DB permission..I don't even know what you're talking about the DB request there.

[FlameMan]

The copban was completely valid. If I saw anyone calling any other person "motherf**ker" in police radio, he would end up with a copban from me as well.
Yes it is administrative issue, however it is also SAPD/ARPD issue. As you know, SAPD Command is allowed to use copban on any ARPD Officer breaking server rules on duty (deathmatching, killing surrendered suspect etc). Same goes for insulting others.
7 days punishment is fair enough for a regular player with pretty impressive history in SAPD and on the server in general. As an ex-admin and ex-deputy chief, you knew what you were doing. And you were doing it consciously and purposely.

[GiacJr]

Hi, Giac.

I am the SFPD Captain and Daniel's supervisor so I will be handling the report against him.

From what Daniel has explained to me in private was that he cop banned you for your comment towards the other officers (I'm not sure who you directed the flame to) which was offensive and inappropriate.

For starters, I'd like you to provide logs of this entire conversation - just for full discretion in this case. I've not done any talking behind doors, so I expect that your talks would be done in public for everyone to see as well. You know, in the interests of transparency and fairness.

As you obviously know, the ARPD and SAPD does expects the officer to follow the server rules in the line of duty, in which a command member at this point may punish you for breaking the rules as a supervisor towards the rest of the ARPD and SAPD officers.

It is my understanding that it is not up to the players to issue punishments for breach of server rules - that is the role and job of the admins. In Daniel's case, he is nothing more than a player on Argonath SAMP and therefore has no rights to be issuing me with punishments for an admin issue.

At this point, you were cop banned for 7 days which in my own opinion is too much as well but of course that could fixed by the end of this investigation.
Other than that though, Daniel did nothing wrong as such thing may be handled by the command as far as I know (disrespectful attitude towards other officers would be the best explanation to the cop ban at this point) therefore the ban is valid.

However, he did not word the cop ban as such. He worded it as flaming and, as such, he saw me flaming, which is a server rule, and punished me for the server rule, which isn't his job. Sure, now we can make other names for what I did, but at that point in time, Daniel went beyond his powers and into the realm of admins.

But what could of been done as you mentioned is that Daniel could approach you first before taking any action against you.
I will investigate this case together with the rest of the SAPD Upper-Command staff as Daniel is a member of the SAPD Command.

If you have anything more to add, please do so now.
Topic will be moved in 24 hours time or whenever both parties agrees to not have anything more to add.

Thanks!

I would also like to request that Argonath upper staff comment on this case. I would like to see the comment from either a community leader or above, as I believe that this issue goes beyond the SAPD and requires their interpretation. I'm sure you should have no problems sorting this out - if you're right, that is.

Nothing more to add... Oh and yes, the copban is all about the flaming, it has nothing to do with the DB permission..I don't even know what you're talking about the DB request there.

So wait, you think this had nothing to do with DB permission? Let me quote a couple of things from my own chat logs I provided...
[22:18:55] GiacJr(2): Police Radio: who the f**k's gonna stop me, Over.
[22:19:03] [WS]Daniel(38): Police Radio: I will do if you dont stop it, Over.

This clearly shows that you had a reaction to me granting that guy permission to Driveby - therefore, it is this issue that is the core of this case. This threat to me was unprofessional, out of line and way beyond your job description. I would like this aspect of the issue to be investigated thorougly also.

The copban was completely valid. If I saw anyone calling any other person "motherf**ker" in police radio, he would end up with a copban from me as well.
Yes it is administrative issue, however it is also SAPD/ARPD issue. As you know, SAPD Command is allowed to use copban on any ARPD Officer breaking server rules on duty (deathmatching, killing surrendered suspect etc). Same goes for insulting others.
7 days punishment is fair enough for a regular player with pretty impressive history in SAPD and on the server in general. As an ex-admin and ex-deputy chief, you knew what you were doing. You were doing it consciously.

No, FlameMan, he would end up with admin punishment as it is a server rule and therefore punishable by admin powers, not police powers. Even if you say it is abuse of /r, it is a server rule not to abuse commands and therefore an admin issue.
SAPD Command are NOT server administrators - they do NOT have the power nor rights to punish other regular players for breaking the server rules. It is this point I would like to be clarified, as I have no doubt in my mind that I'm correct.
I never denied what I did. I do, however, think it should have been dealt with properly - via /report id reason. That is what I'm getting at. Daniel abuse /copban by putting himself in the admin position when he is really just a normal player.

Thanks,
GiacJr

[FlameMan]

No, FlameMan, he would end up with admin punishment as it is a server rule and therefore punishable by admin powers, not police powers. Even if you say it is abuse of /r, it is a server rule not to abuse commands and therefore an admin issue.
SAPD Command are NOT server administrators - they do NOT have the power nor rights to punish other regular players for breaking the server rules. It is this point I would like to be clarified, as I have no doubt in my mind that I'm correct.
I never denied what I did. I do, however, think it should have been dealt with properly - via /report id reason. That is what I'm getting at. Daniel abuse /copban by putting himself in the admin position when he is really just a normal player.

Yes GiacJr, Sergeants are allowed to punish any ARPD Officer who is deathmatching, killing surrendered suspects, killing standing still suspects, dealing drugs on duty (which is also administrative issue, as it is abuse of script). Same goes with insulting. It is ARPD/SAPD issue as well. You are ARPD Officer. And speaking on radio is connected to ARPD. Insulting on radio is connected to ARPD as well.

I find this report as just another "moaning after punishment" report. This time tho, the punishment is completely valid. And I see no chance to lift your copban.

[Daniel_Bradford]

Some words before I leave, seeing you are too much mind closed..

Sean and FlameMan gave two different interpretations of the punishement, yet you keep saying they are wrong..

Also, as you're ARPD Officer I have the right to give you orders and so, this is not an admin issue as you claim .. you crossed the line by flaming twice in the police radio chat, you get punished for that.

[GiacJr]

Some words before I leave, seeing you are too much mind closed..

Sean and FlameMan gave two different interpretations of the punishement, yet you keep saying they are wrong..

Also, as an ARPD Officer I have the right to give you orders and so, this is not an admin issue as you claim .. you crossed the line by flaming twice in the police radio chat, you get punished for that.

ARPD Officers do not have to follow orders of SAPD members because they are not part of the organisation.

Click for quote source
You're wrong.

And maybe you are so close minded to think that there are only two interpretations? Perhaps there could be three? In fact, I would say there will be hundreds of interpretations of rules for this particular issue. So maybe you should open your mind to the possibility that people other than your superiors might be right. Fancy that, eh?

No, FlameMan, he would end up with admin punishment as it is a server rule and therefore punishable by admin powers, not police powers. Even if you say it is abuse of /r, it is a server rule not to abuse commands and therefore an admin issue.
SAPD Command are NOT server administrators - they do NOT have the power nor rights to punish other regular players for breaking the server rules. It is this point I would like to be clarified, as I have no doubt in my mind that I'm correct.
I never denied what I did. I do, however, think it should have been dealt with properly - via /report id reason. That is what I'm getting at. Daniel abuse /copban by putting himself in the admin position when he is really just a normal player.

Yes GiacJr, Sergeants are allowed to punish any ARPD Officer who is deathmatching, killing surrendered suspects, killing standing still suspects, dealing drugs on duty (which is also administrative issue, as it is abuse of script). Same goes with insulting. It is ARPD/SAPD issue as well. You are ARPD Officer. And speaking on radio is connected to ARPD. Insulting on radio is connected to ARPD as well.

I find this report as just another "moaning after punishment" report. This time tho, the punishment is completely valid. And I see no chance to lift your copban.

As I see that we will not get anywhere with this - I would like to, once again, request upper SAMP Management to comment on this issue, as it involves command powers, not just an SAPD issue. I will not be commenting on this specific point further - I am going to wait for the comment from upper SAMP Management.

[SeanC]

Hello again!

The conversation I had with Daniel was on voice chat. We were on MSN when you posted the report and he informed me about it right away.
I read through it and he explained what happened but of course, I cannot fulfill your request for a chat log at this point as the conversation weren't recorded, I'm sorry.

It is indeed not up to a normal player to handle such situations but as mentioned, this occurred while you are on duty and like I said, in my previous post, command members can punish for server offences which is related to the police, for example disrespectful attitude from another officer towards another which is quite the same as this situation but the difference is the reasoning Daniel placed on it flaming but again what makes it valid is that it is still police related because this was done in the police radio.

Thank you!

PS: I can't guarantee getting the community leader or owners here right now.

[Deluca]

Some words before I leave, seeing you are too much mind closed..

Sean and FlameMan gave two different interpretations of the punishement, yet you keep saying they are wrong..

Also, as an ARPD Officer I have the right to give you orders and so, this is not an admin issue as you claim .. you crossed the line by flaming twice in the police radio chat, you get punished for that.

ARPD Officers do not have to follow orders of SAPD members because they are not part of the organisation.

Click for quote source
You're wrong.

Sorry for posting here, but I just wanted to add something that might solve this little issue.

Giac, you are wrong, look below.

I'm just looking for yes/no answers, perhaps with a little explanation here 

1. Do SAPD Officers technically outrank ARPD Officers?

Yes

2. If yes, does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

3. Do SAPD Senior Officers outrank ARPD Officers?

yes

4. If yes, does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

5. Do FBI Agents outrank ARPD Officers?

yes

6. Does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

7. Do FBI Special Agents outrank ARPD Officers?

yes

8. Does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

[GiacJr]

Hello again!

The conversation I had with Daniel was on voice chat. We were on MSN when you posted the report and he informed me about it right away.
I read through it and he explained what happened but of course, I cannot fulfill your request for a chat log at this point as the conversation weren't recorded, I'm sorry.

It is indeed not up to a normal player to handle such situations but as mentioned, this occurred while you are on duty and like I said, in my previous post, command members can punish for server offences which is related to the police, for example disrespectful attitude from another officer towards another which is quite the same as this situation but the difference is the reasoning Daniel placed on it flaming but again what makes it valid is that it is still police related because this was done in the police radio.

Thank you!

PS: I can't guarantee getting the community leader or owners here right now.

I'm not requesting someone here right now - I just want this topic kept open until they arrive. Thank you.

Some words before I leave, seeing you are too much mind closed..

Sean and FlameMan gave two different interpretations of the punishement, yet you keep saying they are wrong..

Also, as an ARPD Officer I have the right to give you orders and so, this is not an admin issue as you claim .. you crossed the line by flaming twice in the police radio chat, you get punished for that.

ARPD Officers do not have to follow orders of SAPD members because they are not part of the organisation.

Click for quote source
You're wrong.

Sorry for posting here, but I just wanted to add something that might solve this little issue.

Giac, you are wrong, look below.

I'm just looking for yes/no answers, perhaps with a little explanation here 

1. Do SAPD Officers technically outrank ARPD Officers?

Yes

2. If yes, does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

3. Do SAPD Senior Officers outrank ARPD Officers?

yes

4. If yes, does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

5. Do FBI Agents outrank ARPD Officers?

yes

6. Does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

7. Do FBI Special Agents outrank ARPD Officers?

yes

8. Does this mean they can give them orders?

yes

This was posted one year ago - rules change, maybe we need Gandalf to reaffirm? In any case, FlameMan, a current SAPD Command Member, has interpreted the SAPD guidelines differently, and that is what I am gonna go by.

[[Rstar]Paul]

Closed.

Member already fired from the SAPD.