Suggestion for rules of engagement, and dealing with runners/resisters

[Chase]

I've seen this happen many times because its theoretically allowed by the rules -


* Suspect gets wanted for a minor crime (i.e purse snatching or evading traffic stop)
* Suspect takes off running.
* Cops open fire, killing him, due to the fact that he ran and cops felt there was no other means to stop him.


Now I don't know about you guys but I think it gives the department a bad name and thus people have the impression that SAPD is all about orange dot killing, peew pew, etc, etc...


My suggestion is this, and no - it's not a script idea because it can be done without script support.


First, we need to differentiate what crimes are minor and what crimes aren't. Most of the time just use your common sense judgement.


I would like to classify crimes into four categories:


Non-violent crimes


This includes crimes that are not done with any sort of weapon.
Apprehending perps who have committed such crimes typically won't require you to even draw your duty weapon, just your muscles, mace, and nightstick.


Examples are:

• Petty theft
• Trespassing
• Eluding police (onfoot)
• Obstructing justice
• Using drugs in public
• Dealing or having possession of illegal narcotics.
• etc, etc.
  
  

Potentially violent crimes

Crimes in this category are crimes that have the potential to become violent. These people typically may or may not have a weapon.
Apprehending people who have committed crimes in this category CAN be dangerous, so you will have to use more caution than normal.
The best and safest way to apprehend people in this category is to draw your duty weapon, aim it at them, tell them to stop, show their hands and get on their knees.
If they run instead of fight, continue pursuit and hold fire. I would recommend to not fire unless it becomes violent and life threatening.

Examples are:

• Robbery
• Assault and battery (without firearm or knife)
• Eluding police with a vehicle (because vehicles themselves can be weapons!)
• Transporting massive amounts of illegal drugs
• Brandishing a weapon in public
• Burglary
• Carjacking
• etc, etc

Violent crimes

The crimes in this category are people who have done a violent crime with a weapon such as a firearm.
The safest way to get these people would be to aim at them with your duty weapon or a long gun such as a shotgun / rifle, tell them to freeze, do not move, and even tell them that any sudden moves will get them shot. If they move and/or run, you should open fire. You cannot take chances with these suspects as they have done something very bad and violent and you do not know if they are willing to repeat it on you, or other officers/civilians. In some cases, SWAT and FBI may respond to these situations


Examples include:

• Attempted murder
• Murder
• Kidnapping (without casualties)
• Murder of one police officer.
• Firearm assaults
• Bomb threats
• etc, etc.

Terroristic Crimes


Suspects who have committed terroristic crimes are considered armed, dangerous, blood thirsty, and to have no regard for human life. Terroristic crimes they have committed may even subject them to the death penalty if caught alive.


The safest way to catch these suspects unfortunately is to shoot on sight, and only hold fire if they show a sign of surrendering. In most cases, SWAT and/or FBI will respond.


The reason to shoot on sight is because they pose a huge public safety risk and cannot be out in public, and must be stopped quickly and effectively.


Examples of terroristic crimes are:

• Murdering 2 or more police officers
• Murdering 1 or more federal agents
• Bombing
• Plane hijacking
• Kidnapping with murder of a hostage
• Assisting people who are committing terroristic crimes.
• etc, etc.

Now you may ask "How can I stop someone with a minor crime who just keeps resisting?"


Let me remind you the goal is to minimize lethal force with firearms. So this is simple. Keep chasing them, and beating them with nightstick and use pepper spray. They will eventually give up most likely. If it comes down to it, you should neutralize them with pepper spray or nightstick.




I welcome any additional ideas to this suggestion so please discuss and hopefully  we can come together with a solution.


This is not official procedures, it is merely a suggestion for procedures. I do however recommend that officers continue to use their best judgement when dealing with both violent and non violent criminals!

[Kevin_Arens]

Howdy Chase!

I strongly agree with you.
I think the most Officers use their deagle because:
1. Suspects are bunnyhopping away -> difficult to spray or catch them.
2. Suspects ALWAYS run/bunnyhop towards a vehicle, Officers do not want them to get in that vehicle.

I agree with using your baton or pepperspray but it's more difficult than it looks like.
I therefore suggest always to use roleplay for roleplaying criminals.
Unholster your taser, jump on him, etcetera..

Thanks and good work Chase!
See you on the field.

[James Moretti]

Problem is that if they do run, they don't run to escape and hide, they run to a state vehicle which then is very hard to disable for regular officers.

[Andrew Banks]

Due to samp sync, it is close to impossible to spray him, cuz on your screen you spray him, on their screen you don't.
I always role play jumping on them, using a tazer, 90 percent of them do not RP with it.
I'd like to be it this way, but it would need to be worked on from both sides.

[Kevin_Arens]

This pic explains the situation if you RP.
We even called an admin.
Around 10 cops, we RP jumped on him etc..
He avoids everything.....
And he said if u are not gonna shoot me I'll just run to a car.
You can ofc call an admin like we did, because this is unrealistic.
(Good old times :x )

[James Moretti]

And he's the guy that moans in /p about not being able to RP on Argonath properly, irony please. 

[Matthew Carter]

fake! it's fake! pic from RS4!
People will say that times changed including players. I think it's true, they changed into way of raging and moaning more.

[Rusty.]

If anyone had read the Officers Handbook they would see the "Level of Force" for different situations. you can get yourself into and whaty course of action you should take.  Granted this doesn't cover those running away from a Officer but it's really common sense that if they ARE unarmed you shouldn't resort to firearms unless they pull one out of try to escape in a vehicle.  The procedures do say different, procedures that are in serious needed of being revised something I'll bring up to Mike whenever I get him on TeamSpeak. 

I've started leaning towards continuously running after unarmed fleeing suspects on foot rather than trying to shoot them dead,

Code: [Select]

Suspect and/or civilians are complying.  They are following orders and pose no threat.
- Reaction: No additional force needed, continue with your duties.

Suspect and/or civilian is being verbally abusive has a hint of aggression.
- Reaction: Verbal warn, be more assertive and raise your voice to make them comply.

Disobeying orders, preparing to fight and hint of violent actions.
- Reaction: Verbal warn and call for back-up.

Assaulting using melee weapons and threatening your life.
- Reaction: Call for back-up, use a non lethal weapon such as your baton or pepper spray.

Commiting a felony, brandishing a firearm and there is multiple suspects on scene, vehicular assault.
- Reaction: Call for immediate back-up, show your firearm and even take aim depending how serious it is.

Suspect is firing a weapon, shots hitting civilian vehicles and others around, fleeing with a vehicle after being warned to stop.
- Reaction: Shoot.  Preserve the lives of others, if it's really serious shoot to kill.

[Matthew Carter]

The nicer we'll be to criminals, the more *beep* they'll be to us.

[Nexus Riggs]

Our chance to apprehend a suspect decreases when the suspect begins to evade from the police, also for regular officers, the only last resort is to wield his/her firearms and eliminate the suspect. Although I do agree with the mentioned suggestions, but it would require the suspect to comply within RP when being tazed or sprayed. As Chief Culver stated above, every officer should use their duty weapons to a certain degree depending upon the situation they encounter. It is just matter of how we are going to make these suggestions be effective toward apprehension and crime reduction.   

[Jake Parker]

If anyone had read the Officers Handbook they would see the "Level of Force" for different situations. you can get yourself into and whaty course of action you should take.  Granted this doesn't cover those running away from a Officer but it's really common sense that if they ARE unarmed you shouldn't resort to firearms unless they pull one out of try to escape in a vehicle.  The procedures do say different, procedures that are in serious needed of being revised something I'll bring up to Mike whenever I get him on TeamSpeak. 

I've started leaning towards continuously running after unarmed fleeing suspects on foot rather than trying to shoot them dead,

Code: [Select]

Suspect and/or civilians are complying.  They are following orders and pose no threat.
- Reaction: No additional force needed, continue with your duties.

Suspect and/or civilian is being verbally abusive has a hint of aggression.
- Reaction: Verbal warn, be more assertive and raise your voice to make them comply.

Disobeying orders, preparing to fight and hint of violent actions.
- Reaction: Verbal warn and call for back-up.

Assaulting using melee weapons and threatening your life.
- Reaction: Call for back-up, use a non lethal weapon such as your baton or pepper spray.

Commiting a felony, brandishing a firearm and there is multiple suspects on scene, vehicular assault.
- Reaction: Call for immediate back-up, show your firearm and even take aim depending how serious it is.

Suspect is firing a weapon, shots hitting civilian vehicles and others around, fleeing with a vehicle after being warned to stop.
- Reaction: Shoot.  Preserve the lives of others, if it's really serious shoot to kill.Well maybe I'm wrong but this is only working in theory as you face a luciano member by example we try to do our jobs on this way rusty has stated we raise our voice Mr. Luciano gets mad (Backup has been called already) he pulls out a firearm and you're dead before the backup arrives as there are 90% of the officers not responding if you request backup cuz they are only responding to a C30 of a 207. I agree to your statement cuz this is how we should work no problem but it is damn hard to work this way if we get killed already before we actually force the civilian to stop there vandalism as example.

[Huntsman]

I strongly support this, I've seen many cops (not only freecops, SAPD as well) simply just deagle'ing a suspect to death as soon as he starts to move. We have our pepper spray and nitestick for a reason, i'm pretty sure we should put them to good use. I think that SAPD regulations need to be changed that guns cant be used unless the suspect threatens you with a lethal weapon or has attempted escape with a vehicle/is currently escaping in a vehicle.

[Monte Montague]

I would much rather see death penalty for a lot of crimes. 

[DarkShadowBlade]

If anyone had read the Officers Handbook they would see the "Level of Force" for different situations. you can get yourself into and whaty course of action you should take.  Granted this doesn't cover those running away from a Officer but it's really common sense that if they ARE unarmed you shouldn't resort to firearms unless they pull one out of try to escape in a vehicle.  The procedures do say different, procedures that are in serious needed of being revised something I'll bring up to Mike whenever I get him on TeamSpeak. 

I've started leaning towards continuously running after unarmed fleeing suspects on foot rather than trying to shoot them dead,

Code: [Select]

Suspect and/or civilians are complying.  They are following orders and pose no threat.
- Reaction: No additional force needed, continue with your duties.

Suspect and/or civilian is being verbally abusive has a hint of aggression.
- Reaction: Verbal warn, be more assertive and raise your voice to make them comply.

Disobeying orders, preparing to fight and hint of violent actions.
- Reaction: Verbal warn and call for back-up.

Assaulting using melee weapons and threatening your life.
- Reaction: Call for back-up, use a non lethal weapon such as your baton or pepper spray.

Commiting a felony, brandishing a firearm and there is multiple suspects on scene, vehicular assault.
- Reaction: Call for immediate back-up, show your firearm and even take aim depending how serious it is.

Suspect is firing a weapon, shots hitting civilian vehicles and others around, fleeing with a vehicle after being warned to stop.
- Reaction: Shoot.  Preserve the lives of others, if it's really serious shoot to kill.Well maybe I'm wrong but this is only working in theory as you face a luciano member by example we try to do our jobs on this way rusty has stated we raise our voice Mr. Luciano gets mad (Backup has been called already) he pulls out a firearm and you're dead before the backup arrives as there are 90% of the officers not responding if you request backup cuz they are only responding to a C30 of a 207. I agree to your statement cuz this is how we should work no problem but it is damn hard to work this way if we get killed already before we actually force the civilian to stop there vandalism as example.

Looks like it's time for me to come forth. I have had an idea on how to speed up backup call requests. While as of now you're stuck and need to type /r to request backup and since keybinds aren't allowed (If you dont know what they are. I suggest you don't look it up, you may be tempted to use it, and it's against server rules) there is something else we could use... Teamspeak. There is a way for you to switch channels really fast without needing to Tab out allowing for heavy situations to be directed towards that channel. By doing that you could basically call for backup and then direct those responding over to that special channel. Obviously our words are faster then our hands and we could give fluid instructions and percise locations using Teamspeak.

I tried stating this idea before and I was pretty much insulted for it as someone took it the wrong way. I'm not trying to force anyone to even do this. It's an idea and I have seen similar things like this work. If you dont have a headset then thats fine you can still hear the person who do. This makes it so people who have a headset have an advantage. And it's not an unfair andvatage. If people are finding the usage of a microphone on teamspeak unfair, then we probably shouldn't even have a damn teamspeak channel. We could use this to our benefit. I see no other solution here and my idea is still eh... Well not accepted. I do know how to do it but I want to hear someone's opinion (A Sgt.+)...

TL,DR: We can use teamspeak to have people respond to backup calls. Having a headset is beneficial but it's not needed. Those who do can take advantage of this idea to the fullest while those who don't can take advantage to a great level still.

Thoughts on this? Teamspeak has been used Tactical wise not just in SA:MP but various MMOs and other Multiplayer games (Elder Scrolls Online, Guild Wars, etc; blah blah)

[Huntsman]

Argonath needs to get its' principles aside and let SAPD force usage of TS.

[[WS]Mike]

Argonath needs to get its' principles aside and let SAPD force usage of TS.

No.

[Leon Arallian]

Argonath needs to get its' principles aside and let SAPD force usage of TS.

No.

[Matthew Carter]

Argonath needs to get its' principles aside and let SAPD force usage of TS.

No.

I agree with "no".
I doubt everyone would enjoy being forced to be on teamspeak.

[Leon Arallian]

I doubt everyone would enjoy being forced to be on teamspeak.

I rarely use it myself and with good reason: With music on all the time, people sleeping, a fan next to the face etc. etc.
I do admit it's handy at times, but not something that should be forced. Besides, what would /r be used for then? And /cb?

[Andrew Banks]

I suggest you guys to read this topic, maybe support it if you like it

http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=106738.msg1696735#msg1696735